Tuesday, October 25, 2005

Comic Dictionary - Mary Sue

I did not come up with this term, but it is such a useful term in comic critiquing, I think that it is worthwhile to post it.

Here is a good definition that I found of "Mary Sue":
MARY SUE (n.): 1. A variety of story, first identified in the fan fiction community, but quickly recognized as occurring elsewhere, in which normal story values are grossly subordinated to inadequately transformed personal wish-fulfillment fantasies, often involving heroic or romantic interactions with the cast of characters of some popular entertainment. 2. A distinctive type of character appearing in these stories who represents an idealized version of the author. 3. A cluster of tendencies and characteristics commonly found in Mary Sue-type stories. 4. A body of literary theory, originally generated by the fanfic community, which has since spread to other fields (f.i., professional SF publishing) because it’s so darn useful. The act of committing Mary Sue-ism is sometimes referred to as “self-insertion.”
Some notable examples in comics of Mary Sues are Pete Wisdom in Ellis' Excalibur, Tarantula in Grayson's Nightwing and Thanos in a variety of Starlin-penned tales.

Am I missing any other significant, non-Ellis Mary Sues?

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60 Comments:

Blogger Gary said...

Terry, Donna Troy's boyfriend/husband in Wolfman/Perez's Teen Titans? Wasn't he Wolfman's stand in? And they got married in that title, right?

10/25/2005 06:55:00 AM  
Anonymous David C said...

I think it's easy to over-apply the term to super-hero comics, though. For one thing, the genre is inherently *about* wish fulfillment fantasies to some degree (was Superman Siegel and Shuster's Mary Sue?)

And a lot of characters are "characters their creator seems to like a lot more than the vast majority of the reading public," but not necessarily Mary Sues.

For me, the sort of thing that makes a character a Mary Sue has more to do with violation of long-established story elements or character traits, in the Mary Sue's favor.

For example, in Star Trek, it's established that Spock (logically enough) is a superb chess player, better than almost anybody else. The only person who can sometimes beat him? Kirk. It's a nice little device that tells you something about each character. But Ensign Mary Sue? She beats both Kirk and Spock at chess. Regularly.

I see some of this sort of Mary Sue-ism in the new Supergirl - particularly in bits like "She's probably even *more* powerful than Superman, potentially," for no apparent reason and counter-intuitively. (All things being equal, a tall, burly male will probably be stronger than a teenage girl whose waist is about the same diameter as her wrist....)

10/25/2005 09:51:00 AM  
Blogger The Comics Shrew said...

Mary Sue is a bit more than self-insertion. It's idealized self-insertion compounded by wish-fulfillment. Mary Sues have the coolest characters fall for them (platonically or, more often, not), solve the problems nobody else can figure out, have funny-colored eyes and gorgeous bodies....

Over in the X-Men, Thunderbird II, Neal Sharra, was a Mary Sue. (Or, as sometimes is used for males, Marty Stu.) He showed up with the perfect tragic backstory (exiled from home, brother turned into Sentinel by Bastion, then his One True Love got turned into a Prime Sentinel while they were looking for him), was immediately fawned over by Jean Grey, made Cable look like a doof, had Wolfsbane panting, and then got picked for the Sekrit X-Team, during which he successfully seduced Pyslocke away from Warren Worthington. I was shamefully still reading X-books during all this and he's one of the reasons I stopped.

10/25/2005 09:54:00 AM  
Blogger Marionette said...

I thought Thunderbird II was the big green one with the pod that contained Thunderbird IV and The Mole.

If there's one thing I find really icky it's when the writer/artist inserts himself into the story so he can have sex with the heroine. Is that tacky or what?

10/25/2005 10:39:00 AM  
Blogger Mark Fossen said...

I don't know on this one ... maybe it's a good Mary Sue?

King Mob?

Or maybe (since I've never heard the term before) I don't know what I'm talking about?

10/25/2005 10:51:00 AM  
Anonymous Iron Lungfish said...

King Mob is not a "good" Mary Sue, but he certainly is one: a fantasy character representing an idealized version of the author who spends a lot of time being extravagently cool and having sex with the hot chick.

I much prefer Morrison's proxy in the Filth: a pudgy, balding, middle-aged man who jerks off to bad porn, has a neurotic fixation with his cat and is deeply unsure about his role in the world around him.

10/25/2005 11:12:00 AM  
Blogger The Comics Shrew said...

Something to keep in mind (which I should have stated above) -- not all author avatars are Mary Sues and not all Mary Sues are author avatars.

A Mary Sue doesn't have to be a self-insert. She could just be a crappily designed character whose only discernable traits are that she's perfect/perfectly unique/fulfills the desires of a certain segment of the readership. Author avatars that are sufficiently complex/flawed/interesting aren't Mary Sues because pretty much every author puts a little bit of himself into a character.

Another Mary Sue who is nobody's self-insert: X-23. Bad fanfic written by 13-year-old girls is rife with "lost daughter of Wolverine" stories.

10/25/2005 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger Marionette said...

Bad fanfic written by 13-year-old girls is rife with "lost daughter of Wolverine" stories.

The more I hear about fanfic the weirder and more perverted it becomes.

10/25/2005 01:04:00 PM  
Blogger T. said...

A really bad Mary Stu I remember was the Foreigner in Peter David's 80s Spider-Man run. This character almost ruined what I remember as a pretty good run. In his first appearance, we have Sabretooth appear to sycophantically beg this ponce for the chance to join his assassin organization. Sabretooth gets turned down and dismissed. He shags Spider-Man's ex, the Black Cat. He turns out to have been Silver Sable's ex-husband, meaning he shagged yet another hottie from Spider-Man's world. Jack O'Lantern turns to him to kill his rival, the Hobgoblin, because Foreigner's league of assassins is just so badass. Foreigner;s league of assassins ambushes and takes down the Hobgoblin with no problem despite the fact that they have no problem and Hobgoblin is Spider-Man's archnemesis. Why? Because they were trained by that ultimate badass, the Foreigner! There was an issue where Spider-Man and Foreigner had a showdown, but I refused to read it because at the rate Peter David was going I'm sure he'd have the nonpowered Foreigner illogically beating the shit out of Spidey. I had given up the book due to that Mary Sue.

Man, I hated that character.

10/25/2005 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger Harvey Jerkwater said...

To pimp myself, I wrote a post about Mary Sues in comics a few months back.

Matt Wagner is king of the Comic Book Mary Sue. Hunter Rose? Kevin Matchstick?

10/25/2005 01:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Scott said...

I guess that means that Laurell Hamilton is queen of the Anita Blakes - I mean, Mary Sues. At least the monster porn Mary Sues, anyway...

10/25/2005 02:07:00 PM  
Anonymous RAB said...

I know this doesn't count as a Mary Sue, but the post about Thunderbird 2 being green has finally convinced me that Marionette is actually me writing under another name. How do I do that? Especially without knowing I'm doing it? Or maybe I'm the made-up identity, and Marionette is the real person, making the screen name particularly ironic.

Sorry, but it was bugging me.

10/25/2005 02:36:00 PM  
Blogger Michael said...

"The more I hear about fanfic the weirder and more perverted it becomes."

Girl, you have no idea.

Get me drunk and I'll tell you about the Daria/Sailor Moon fic that crushed my soul.

10/25/2005 02:58:00 PM  
Blogger Michael said...

Oh, and a far more common male version of the Mary Sue archetype is "Gary Stu."

10/25/2005 02:59:00 PM  
Blogger John Lombard said...

Devin Grayson is the Tarantula?! But she raped Nightwing!

10/25/2005 03:05:00 PM  
Blogger Bill said...

Jenny Sparks and Spider Jerusalem are also widely acknowledged as Warren Ellis Mary Sues.

And Jessica Jones is often pointed out as being Bendis's Mary Sue. Insert joke about Bendis's feelings toward Luke Cage here.

10/25/2005 03:19:00 PM  
Anonymous RAB said...

Not every case of authorial projection into a story is automatically a "Mary Sue." There IS a difference between naked wish fulfillment and Spider Jerusalem. That said, I'd need to give this a lot more thought to figure out where that dividing line falls, so I'll grant they're similar in some respects.

And I'd say the Brian Bendis "Mary Sue" is Luke Cage, not Jessica Jones. He's remarkably free of his previous characterization and personality, and exists in the Bendis ouvre solely to get the "ideal girl."

10/25/2005 03:48:00 PM  
Blogger Christopher Burton said...

Insert joke about Bendis's feelings toward Luke Cage here.

Heh! Insert.

10/25/2005 04:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Dizzy said...

We had a discussion on this on CBR before and I keep with my opinion that Pete Wisdom (while certainly an author-insert) is not a Mary Sue, because he is too flawed a human. Same thing for Matt Wagner's Hunter Rose and Kevin Matchstick (though Hunter Rose comes closer to Suedom.

The Wikipaedia entry is very extensive and makes a lot of good points about what makes a Sue and what not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Some important points are:
- The Mary Sue can do no wrong and is always right.
- Well-liked by all the canonical protagonists. (Or at least nearly all)
- Centrally involved in every part of the story.
- the Mary Sue character almost invariably possesses a 'big picture' view that allows them to solve all of these little problems, thereby sewing up the series in a happily-ever-after fashion.

It also makes the very good point that in genre-fiction some of the Mary Sue-abilities are very common and not a single point makes a person a Mary Sue.

And I would add Nemesis from the recent Wildcats-mini as a Mary Sue. Some of Garth Ennis characters have some author-insertability, but are overall flawed enough to not be Mary Sues.

10/25/2005 04:46:00 PM  
Blogger Tom Foss said...

Mary Sues in fanfiction are usually characterized by being incredibly important but heretofore unrevealed people, who have some deep connection to important figures in the universe, and even the established "stars" of the universe are typically in some sort of awe over their abilities, and sometimes the Mary Sue turns out to be better than one or more of the main characters at whatever those characters are best at. They usually go on to become best friends with one of the major factions, joining as a high-ranking member from the start. This often culminates in a romantic relationship or marriage with one of the major characters. Other characters in the universe fall all over themselves, without regard to past characterization, to make the Mary Sue's life a fantastic paradise.

The biggest established example I can think of is Timothy Zahn's Star Wars character Mara Jade, who embodies everything about Mary Sues.

10/25/2005 05:25:00 PM  
Anonymous David C said...

It's also worth noting that Mary Sues are often martyrs. Frequently, because whatever established setting they're inserted into would be forever changed by the continuing presence of Mary Sue, perfection personified.

I can't remember the story in detail, but if memory serves, the JLA's short-lived Tomorrow Woman fits this particular aspect of Mary Suedom to a T.

10/25/2005 05:50:00 PM  
Blogger Marionette said...

I just found this: http://www.angelfire.com/gundam/otto/grayswandir/mary-sue-test.html

It's a Mary Sue test. Not that I consider the writers to be biased or anything but the highest rating they give a definition for is 71; when I tried applying the test to Harry Potter he came out at 78.

10/25/2005 05:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Dizzy said...


The biggest established example I can think of is Timothy Zahn's Star Wars character Mara Jade, who embodies everything about Mary Sues.


But funny enough, not when written by Zahn himself. At least not in Heir to the Empire trilogy: Mara Jade was a supporting character in that and here role wasn't really big at all. Post-Heir it seems that writers latched on to her as an attempt to make us forget that Luke kissed his sister.

10/25/2005 06:31:00 PM  
Blogger Tom Foss said...

Jade was a viable character in Kevin Anderson's "Jedi Academy," where she fell into a relationship with Lando. I thought that was a good move, and it took her out of the spotlight she had in "Heir," where she was the long-lost head assassin to Emperor Palpatine, a fantastic lightsaber fighter, etc. etc.
Then Zahn came back and married her to Luke, thus completing her Mary Suedom, and making me give up Star Wars books forever.

10/25/2005 06:47:00 PM  
Blogger Daniel said...

Sarah Stacy-Osborn in JMS' Spider-Man?

The original Ronnie Raymond Firestorm?

10/25/2005 06:50:00 PM  
Blogger T. said...

I borrowed the Animal Man trade from the library today and I think that grant Morrison may be his own Mary Sue.

10/25/2005 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger Kevin Melrose said...

"And I'd say the Brian Bendis 'Mary Sue' is Luke Cage, not Jessica Jones. He's remarkably free of his previous characterization and personality, and exists in the Bendis ouvre solely to get the 'ideal girl'."

The Bendis/Cage comparison really holds up when you: a.) consider his adolescent-style obsession with Jessica Drew/Spider-Woman; and b.) remember that he originally planned for Alias to star Jessica Drew.

10/25/2005 08:58:00 PM  
Anonymous J. Kevin Carrier said...

I think, by definition, a Mary Sue has to be a character who gets added later to an existing franchise (and then threatens to take it over). Spider Jerusalem and King Mob can't be Mary Sues, because they're the lead characters from day one -- the universe is *supposed* to revolve around them and their greatness. It's not just "wish-fulfillment characters", it's "wish-fulfillment characters who warp the rest of the cast beyond all recognition with the gravity well of their uber-competence"

10/25/2005 09:03:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

I think Wisdom counts. I mean, flawed character? Flawed in the sense that he had an edge, sure, but that was only to further highlight how cool he was.

He was a new addition to the Marvel Universe who had connections to everyone, was constantly getting the best lines, made all the other heroes look dopey by comparison, and ended up bedding the other most interesting character in the book.

10/25/2005 09:23:00 PM  
Blogger Singles said...

It should probably be note that King Mob in The Invisibles was, according to interviews, written as some type pf magical way of transforming Grant Morrison himself into a badass, stylish, superstar. Or something like that. Sometimes Morrison loses me when he talks about this stuff. I only try to understand it.

10/26/2005 02:15:00 AM  
Anonymous Kelson said...

As much as Ellis used Spider Jerusalem to sound off or just as a showcase for some weird ideas he had, dismissing him as a Mary Sue (or even just an Ellis Avatar) ignores the huge Hunter S. Thompson influence. Maybe if Warren Ellis and Hunter Thompson were fused in a transporter accident?

On another topic: Mara Jade had no characterization in Kevin Anderson's books. Her sole characteristic was "I'm angry." Several other Star Wars authors managed to be consistent with this portrayal. While pairing her off with Luke was forced (no pun intended), at least she had a personality when Zahn wrote her.

10/26/2005 02:39:00 AM  
Anonymous Dizzy said...

I think Wisdom counts. I mean, flawed character? Flawed in the sense that he had an edge, sure, but that was only to further highlight how cool he was.

He was a new addition to the Marvel Universe who had connections to everyone


Connections to who exactly? Black Air? He used to work for them and that's the only connection he had. He didn't have Gambit's "I've met him/her before" reaction to anybody.

was constantly getting the best lines

That comes with the territory when you are an Ellis mouthpiece. I would say that Kurt and Moira also had good lines.

made all the other heroes look dopey by comparison

Nope, absolutely not. Wisdom was usually one of the first to get taken out in fights: Shadowcat, Lockheed, Brian and Meggan all had to save him at least once. His involvement in the X-man fight was a single panel.
Kurt was cool and competent under Ellis, Brian actually showed that he had a brain again, Meggan was portrayed as the most powerful member of the team.
The scene where Wisdom is carried like a sack of potatoes by Colossus to the infirmary would never happen to a Mary Sue.

and ended up bedding the other most interesting character in the book.

That's where he gets Sue-points certainly, but like I said it takes more than that to be a Sue.

- The Mary Sue has to be liked by all other protagonists: Wisdom absolutely wasn't. Shadowcat liked him in the end, Meggan liked him (but Meggan likes everybody) and Rahne and Douglock were polite. Kurt and Brian despised him, Lockheed and Moira were openly hostile.

He also lacked that best-at-anything that a Sue normally has.

10/26/2005 06:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Jeff W said...

Steve Gerber's Howard the Duck and James Robinson's Jack Knight Starman. I guess if there are "good" Mary Sue's they would be the ones...

10/26/2005 02:34:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

I disagree a gazillion percent that a Mary Sue must be liked by everyone.

I think that it just has to be a character that the writer makes clear that WE, the reader, SHOULD be liking, because s/he is so great of a character.

10/26/2005 07:17:00 PM  
Blogger Tom Foss said...

I think the implication is that the Mary Sue is liked by all the other major characters, on one side or another.

10/26/2005 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

The definition I was going by (see above) does not go by the "must be liked by the cast of characters" thing.

But even if we skip the one I was going by, and instead use the wiki defintion - "Mary Sue (or simply Sue) is a pejorative expression for a fictional character who is an idealized stand-in for the author, or for a story with such a character. Originally, the Mary Sue concept came out of Star Trek fan fiction and described an original female character who had a romantic liaison with an established, "canon" character, particularly if she possessed unrealistic or unlikely traits above and beyond those expected of a character in that particular series, or a conventional author surrogate."

I am perfectly willing to accept that a common manisfestation of a Mary Sue (as the wiki piece suggests) is that they are widley admired. But that is not a definitive aspect of a Mary Sue, I do not believe.

10/27/2005 12:31:00 AM  
Anonymous A.L. Baroza said...

It's like pornography; I know it when I see it.

Gotta go with the Shrew's definition. It's that combination of fan-ficcy wish-fulfillment and ego-masturbation. Bottom line: if it's clear that what the writer wants is for the reader to want to fuck or be a character, it's a Mary Sue. Especially if that character possesses traits the writer wants to associate with him/herself (usually in some disturbing psychosexual way).

By that definition, I'd say that every female character written by Chris Claremont is a Mary Sue, the apotheosis of which is, of course, the Phoenix.

And there should be a distinction between a simple author stand-in and a Mary Sue, even if, as in some of Ellis' characters, the dividing line isn't entirely clear. For instance, I'd never consider Howard the Duck a Mary Sue. Gerber, like Ellis, uses stand-in characters often. But Gerber's stand-ins are so anti-glamorous and anti-kewl that they're almost the opposite of Mary Sues. The pervy wish fulfillment aspect just isn't there--it's more like empathy in HTD's case. Mary Sue-ness is inversely proportional to the level of complexity and emotional honesty invested in the character.

10/27/2005 02:19:00 AM  
Blogger Flannel said...

Mara Jade may be the most widely known of them, but Star Wars is full Of Mary Sues—and Gary Stus. Mara Jade got her start in the novels, but since we're talking comics, how about good-guy/bad-guy Jedi Quinlan Vos? He has practically taken over the Prequel Era Star Wars comics, even showing up in books devoted—in theory—to characters from the films (Mace Windu, Shaak Ti, Count Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin, and on and on), often to pull their fat out of the fire or uncover vital information which they could not access.

Comics in general are full of author stand-ins, and to focus this discussion entirely on those characters is to miss another prime category of Mary Sue characters: those who become the author's "babies," who are made to be so important to the franchise characters that it probably seems to the author that the future of the franchise (or at least part of it) is tied to their characters' continued involvement and existence. It's a way for the author to get their fingerprints all over franchise. The character may have nothing to do with the author's self-image (and, as David C pointed out, wish fulfillment being the stock-in-trade in comics, deciphering whether a character is meant to be the author's stand-in or the readers' is sometimes impossible). What I'm talking about are characters who presence in the story could come about only from an author's desire for his or her creation to be noticed. Pure egoboost.

10/28/2005 01:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hate to say it, but I gotta.
Byrne. Wolverine.
Byrne has stated he takes all the "blame" for the character, 'cause he was Canadian and Byrne grew up in Canada. So we have the personal connection, the admission, and the plain fact that for the last quarter decade, Wolverine has been built up to be the bestest X-Man ever. He knew/ was essential to every team/organization/individual worth crap in the Marvel U., from Alpha Flight to Captain America and Cable and SHIELD and now, he's essential to the Avengers. But with Wolverine, it seems like everyone in the comics universe agreed with Byrne's initial assumption. He WAS cool. Claremont takes the heat for this too, but Byrne kicked it off.
Again, I hate to say it, because I love the character, but it's interesting to note how a "Mary Sue" could get so out of control...

10/30/2005 04:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello? The biggest Mary Sue of all time, Kitty Pryde? Not only is she 13 years old and somehow a genius, but every X-Man loves her and she becomes a bad-ass super-ninja?

In some way, Ellis having his Mary Sue screwing Claremont's Mary Sue is something of a Mary Sue ^2. No wonder his Excalibur was so insufferable.

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