Saturday, May 10, 2003

She-Hulk #7 Review

Now that's a rarity, the Greg Horn cover is not the thing that irritated me most about an issue of She-Hulk.

No, the honors for this issue of She-Hulk go to the huge straw man that writer Dan Slott created in the person of Starfox.

I don't mind someone examing how Starfox's pleasure power is a bit creepy. Okay, I mean, I do have a SORT of problem with someone even examining that, as it seems like one of those "suspension of disbelief" things where it does not really help any to examine it further. That being said, I can at least understand why examining the power might be of interest. That's one thing.

However, what Slott has done here is a whole other thing, one which is quite surprising, seeing as how attentive he is to Marvel continuity. Slott has basically rewritten Eros' past as "Lothario" to "rapist."

And I don't like it.

The reason it's a straw man is because Eros has never demonstrated the actions he demonstrates during this storyline, and it is the actions of THIS storyline that make him out to be such a total asshole, heck, beyond that, a rapist.

A rapist.

Again, let us recount - Starfox has NEVER been shown to use his pleasure powers on someone other than during a life/death situation (you know, to stop a bad guy). Never. In fact, he has specifically stated he would NOT do such a thing. Roger Stern never would have had him become an Avenger if he was going around raping women. So, when the story began, and that appeared to be exactly what he was doing, I figured that Slott, who knows a whole lot of Marvel continuity, and certainly knows that Starfox is not a rapist, would reveal what was up, like maybe have it turn out that Eros was being controlled by some bad guy or something like that.

Instead, Slott decides that Starfox, the superhero, the Avenger IS, in fact, a rapist!!

It's silly.

It's short-sighted (as it ruins a character for what, a couple of issues worth of She-Hulk comics?).

And it isn't even particularly clever.

Oh? The superhero with the powers where he can influence people's mind is a rapist! How novel!

I've been taking up a lot of time with this rant, and I apologize for that. It was just so surprising to see Slott take this route, as this is the type of story you expect from someone who's never read a Starfox comic before, and just heard his powers and was creeped out, so decided to make him a rapist. But from someone who obviously HAS read Starfox's appearances? It is quite disappointing.

And even if you're one of those types who is all, "Screw continuity! Who cares what Starfox was like in the past!," then it STILL doesn't work, I don't think, as even if you ARE one of those guys who never read a Starfox comic before, and just heard his powers and was creeped out, why would you make the turn to "rapist." "Hey, your powers are kinda creepy" is one thing - "Hey, you raped me!" is a whole other thing.

Anyhow, the Will Conrad art was nice, I thought. Beyond that, well, almost all the story was based around Starfox being a rapist, so I really can't take the rest of the story apart from that (as the OTHER aspects of the comic involve Starfox having a brand new power, where a suggestion from him makes people crazy in love with OTHER people). There is a funny bit with a former Hydra agent who became infatuated with Starfox after an encounter.

But basically, as the whole issue is built around the straw man of "Starfox the rapist," there's not much I can recommend about this issue.

Two-Gun Kid was cool!

So yeah, not recommended.

Read the Review


Anonymous R. Nav said...

Wow. And here, Dan Slott was all pissed at Bendis for retconning the Hulk into the killer of thousands. (As noted in the Illuminati Special)

5/10/2006 11:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Dasbender said...

I haven't read issue #7 yet but I've read #6 and I sure didn't have the reaction you're having. I don't see how any of this tarnishes Starfox's character. He's not out in the galaxy intentionally raping women. He's just got a power that (unintentionally) causes people to fall in love with him. Couple this with the fact that he's a bit of a lothario (which I don't think is out of character) and you end up with some interesting gray area, morality-wise. How much of what happens around Starfox is "real" and how much is a result of his power? I find that exploration interesting.

This is what She-Hulk has been about since the start (at least of Slott's run) -- "What happens when you juxtapose the insanity of the Marvel Universe against the real world where people sue each other?" I love it! She-Hulk is a book that breaks the 4th wall and winks at the reader. That's all Slot is doing with Starfox.

He's NOT suggesting Starfox is Dr Light.

5/10/2006 12:35:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

Well, dasbender, I'll gladly continue the discussion after you read #7. I was in a similar situation after #6, but #7 was pretty clear the other (bad) direction to me. But I'll let you read it first, but make sure to come back and tell me what you thought!!

5/10/2006 03:44:00 PM  
Anonymous SpiritGlyph said...

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. It was strongly implied that Starfox had used his power on a woman back in one of his earliest Avenger apparences. Here's the panel:

It's a bit ambiguous, but that does not look like a woman in her right mind. She's simply standing there, arms limp as Starfox touches her face. She's not responding to his advances in any way, nor is she rejecting them. She's merely standing there submissively accepting everything he does.

Look at a couple panels later, when the Baxter building starts glowing. She simply continues to stand and even does some free associating about the light. This woman is not acting normally.

5/10/2006 03:45:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

I don't see that at all.

She's not responding to his advances because we only get two panels before she's distracted by the Baxter Building.

The dude's a major Lothario, of that, there is no doubt.

But that panel shows no indication he's messed with her mind (after all, if he DID mess with her mind, she wouldn't be caught up in something ELSE, now would she? She'd ignore the Baxter Building and keep paying attention to Eros).

And again, we're talking about a superhero who has specifically said he DOESN'T use his powers on the ladies.

5/10/2006 03:58:00 PM  
Anonymous SpiritGlyph said...

It's the utter lack of response that strikes me. Starfox is in an exaggeratedly relaxed pose, and she's simply standing there. Caressing someone's face is a very familiar gesture in American culture, and Lothario or not, not reacting to that pretty damn unusual.

I'm not saying that she has to reject him or anything -- Starfox is an attractive guy. But she's not even acting like she's enjoying the attention. If that were the case, she'd be mirroring his relaxed pose. Instead, she's acting as though there's nothing unusual with someone she just met grabbing her jaw, and there certainly is.

Sure, Starfox did say that he didn't use his powers on woman. He also kept that power secret from the Avengers when he first joined. He's clearly not entirely forthcoming.

5/10/2006 04:37:00 PM  
Blogger Apodaca said...

I think you're reading way too much into that page. It seems like pure routine storytelling to me. Set up a character moment, where you can toss some exposition into the dialogue. Starfox is a ladie's man, so we'll show him hitting on a girl, and then the girl can notice the Baxter Building and that takes us right into the scene.

The girl doesn't have a character. She's just there to put a mouth behind the narrative.

5/10/2006 08:22:00 PM  
Blogger Ken Lowery said...

You spent kind of a lot of time repeating the same talking points, that Starfox isn't a rapist. You sound like Scott McLellan.

Just saying. Settle down, Beavis.

5/10/2006 09:33:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

Like I said, the whole issue was BUILT around that point.

There is extremely little in this comic OTHER than "Starfox is a rapist."

The trial about it

The witness testimony about it

The discussion with the Avengers

The discussion with Wasp

The fight with Starfox

All of it revolves around the same straw man, which is that Starfox is bad for controlling people's emotions to get them to have sex with him- something that was not the case until Slott made it so this issue.

5/10/2006 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger Sean Whitmore said...

That is disappointing to hear. I actually liked #6 because I thought Slott was going to be cute with the idea, not take it the Chuck Austen route. (Honestly, doesn't that sound like a plot he'd come up with? Big on sex and low on characterization)

I don't share the fascination with Slott's work that has gripped so many others, and developments like this aren't likely to change my mind.

5/10/2006 10:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Dan Coyle said...

Wait, Dan Slott wrote this? The same Dan Slott who wrote in GLA that rape is a stupid subject for a superhero comic, only the purview of middle aged men who can't get any???

5/10/2006 11:07:00 PM  
Blogger Mallet said...

I completely agree.

I loved issue 6 because I thought Slott was setting the character up as a good guy. He saw the Awesome Android and a woman and having been off planet thought it was still a bad guy so he called for the others to get back up while he distracted it away from the woman.

That doesn't sound like the same man I got in #7.

5/10/2006 11:18:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

To be fair, I THINK that Slott is trying to present it as "Eros, as an alien, doesn't feel bound by our culture, so he doesn't even think what he is doing is wrong."

I think.

It's just presented in the comic as "Eros controls women's minds and makes them have sex with him."

So while Eros might not think it is rape/sexual assault, She-Hulk sure thinks so, which is why she beats the crap out of him. And I don't think "He doesn't think it is wrong" is much of an argument, not to mention contrary to all of Starfox's previous appearances.

5/10/2006 11:30:00 PM  
Blogger Sean Whitmore said...

That dog won't hunt, monsignor.

Even if I could buy that Eros was THAT ignorant of Earth culture (which I don't, between all the time he's spent on Earth, spent watching Earth, and spent talking to people from Earth)... still comes down to a question of perverting a living beings' free will. The Titans aren't so different that they can't see that's wrong.

5/10/2006 11:38:00 PM  
Blogger Evan Waters said...

Is Earth culture that explicit about the wrongness of using supernatural mental/emotional control abilities to get women into bed? I mean, we do emphasize that "No means No", Starfox probably understands that, but there are plenty of folks who see nothing wrong with buying a girl so many drinks that she does something she might not agree to sober- legally we're catching up with the wrongness of this, culturally, not as much.

I just can't be outraged or even irritated at this portrayal of the character. The point is not that he's some twisted evil sex offender, but that his way of life just doesn't fit with ours. It'd be like having Dionysus or Aphrodite on Earth (which I'm sure has happened in a Marvel comic).

And the issue does bring up the ethics of even just doing it to random Hydra guard #7 so he'll be nice and tell you the code.

I think in the story he represents romance and hormonal overdrive and reckless passion and so on- in the last issue he sowed this among the people around them, in this one we see there are consequences to that.

It's not a Dr. Light number. I didn't know anything about the guy going in, didn't come out hating him. I don't see him as "ruined" at all.

5/11/2006 03:58:00 AM  
Blogger Evan Waters said...

That should, of course, be "around him" in the last paragraph.

5/11/2006 04:00:00 AM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

Before this storyline, he never used his powers to make women have sex with him.

After this storyline, he used his powers to make women have sex with him.

I think that's a significant change, especially as, in the past, he made a point of saying he WOULDN'T do that to anyone, BECAUSE it is wrong.

5/11/2006 05:11:00 AM  
Anonymous spj said...

Is Earth culture that explicit about the wrongness of using supernatural mental/emotional control abilities to get women into bed?

If a man gives a woman rohypnol (roofies), she's a lot more likely to "consent" to sex, but won't be in her right mind when she does. As a society we consider this a form of rape - hence the expression "date rape." I think alien mind control pretty obviously falls into this category here, at least.

5/11/2006 07:55:00 AM  
Blogger Greg said...

I hadn't read your review because I don't like to be influenced before I do mine, but I had the same reaction to it. I thought the whole story was inappropriate. It just felt off.

5/11/2006 01:57:00 PM  
Blogger Evan Waters said...

But I'm thinking an alien who spent a lot of time in our culture could still miss even knowing about rohypnol or, perhaps more importantly, see what he does as different.

I think what Slott's doing is going by the name- Eros, aka Cupid, and using him as a trigger for the John Jameson subplot and the Andy/Mallory supblot. The brief for this arc probably wasn't "a serious indictment of the vile rapist Starfox", but "a love-god figure gets in legal trouble and causes romantic complications at the office."

I do think it suffers from being abbreviated so they can have the CIVIL WAR arc. But if the worst that can be said is that it besmirches the reputation of Starfox- eh, at least he's not shooting people in the head.

5/11/2006 02:31:00 PM  
Blogger Evan Waters said...

Hate to double post again, but it occurs to me there's an easy out for this- any future writer could just say he didn't actually use his power, all those women did consent under normal circumstances and one of them just happened to regret it and, perhaps knowing or finding out his power, assumed that's what happened to her. ("I never would have cheated on my husband- I must have been coerced.") Starfox never, as far as I can tell, admits to using his ability on anyone but the Hydra guard, and Jen incapacitates him just as he says "I can explain." So maybe he actually could.

5/11/2006 03:13:00 PM  
Anonymous SpiritGlyph said...

Having gone back and read #6 and #7, I have to agree that there's a clear tonal shift between the two issues. In the first issue, Eros came across as something very similar to Slott's take on Hercules -- not very bright, somewhat irresponsible, but ultimately well-meaning. He zaps Jen and John because he seems to see spreading love as a good thing as much as it was to take the heat off of himself. It almost ends up backfiring too, as as the issue ends Jen seems far too distracted to provide compentent council.

It's in the end of issue 7 that it breaks down. The history between She-Hulk and Starfox pops out of nowhere, and Jen's sudden mood swing seems forced. I can only assume Slott would have handled it better had he not had to deal with Civil War.

5/11/2006 07:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Sharif said...

The trial raised a couple of interesting questions for me. One, is Starfox always aware of using his power? The second is if a woman comes onto a man due to exterior influences, what does it matter that she initiated the coitus?

Obviously, She-Hulk decided that she already knew the answer and that the justice system didn't need to ruminate on the matter. Still, date-rape drugs make a victim passive. This is about actively violating oneself/being violated. Wasp notices She-Hulk transform from her usual, gregarious, confident self, and into Jeniffer Walters once John Jameson arrives. She pegs that interaction is being way-off, much as does Pug. I think Slott is awkwardly trying to parallel the suspect one-night stand with the disturbed-relationship and it just isn't coming off right to some readers.

As for Starfox: I loved the character, but no one's been doing much with him and there has always been something rather icky about his powers no matter how they were portrayed in issues of The Avengers. The fact that previous authors didn't raise the sticky questions doesn't mean they weren't always there to be asked. Sure, it's not fair. The super-hero genre and the Law and Order genres aren't typically supposed to mix. It's like when they did that cross-over between Allie Mcbeal and The Practice (I loathed both shows but couldn't help watching... oh, whatever!). The disjunction between the two show's tones made for some productive fodder. That's what this kind of comic aims for whether or not it always hits the target.

5/11/2006 08:01:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

"The trial raised a couple of interesting questions for me. One, is Starfox always aware of using his power?"

Unless his power has changed, yes.

"The second is if a woman comes onto a man due to exterior influences, what does it matter that she initiated the coitus?"

I agree, I don't think it matters. Did they say otherwise in the comic? I missed that.

"As for Starfox: I loved the character, but no one's been doing much with him and there has always been something rather icky about his powers no matter how they were portrayed in issues of The Avengers."



Making women have sex with him?

Not until this issue.

"The fact that previous authors didn't raise the sticky questions doesn't mean they weren't always there to be asked."

They DID raise it, though, when Eros pointed out that he specifically never used his powers to get ladies, BECAUSE it was wrong. He would only use it to fight crime.

Essentially, it's like a writer coming along and saying, "Professor X must use his powers to make women have sex with him. I know he says he wouldn't, and I know he's a hero and all, but he CAN do it, so he MUST have done it, right?"

It is an awfully cynical leap to go from "Starfox could make women have sex with him" to "Starfox made women have sex with him."

5/11/2006 08:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Sharif said...

I don't think Professor X is a particularly good example for you to raise. But I get... you think he's a stand-up guy. Cool.

5/11/2006 08:29:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

How about Psylocke?

5/11/2006 08:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Sharif said...

I don't think she works well either. Didn't she spend a great deal of time using her powers to psychically seduce Cyclops? When fiance Jean Grey called her on it, Psylocke vamped out and assaulted her.

5/11/2006 09:00:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

She was just trying to seduce him, the old fashioned way!

Man, what a weird story THAT was.

5/11/2006 09:18:00 PM  
Anonymous SpiritGlyph said...

Weird and best ignored, I say. I stopped caring about Psylocke when she went from being a demure, ruthless Englishwoman to a generic half-naked ninja.

As for Starfox's powers, it's worth pointing out that they were always active to a certain low-level degree, affecting everyone around him.

5/11/2006 10:01:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

Oh, I thought this was the end of the arc.

Dan Slott seems to be indicating elsewhere that he will be coming back to the Starfox plot after Civil War.

If that's the case, there is always the chance that this WAS still a big misunderstanding!!

Fingers crossed for lots and lots of Space Phantoms!

5/12/2006 03:54:00 AM  
Anonymous C. Tynne said...


This issue -stank-.

It was almost as if Slott was trying to emulate the rash of "Once whimsical, fun super-heroes were really mind-raping jerks" comics we've seen in the past couple of years.

Or something.

Seriously considering dropping the book if they continue in this direction.

5/12/2006 07:41:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

Again, apparently Civil War cut this story down to size, so Slott WILL be coming back to it, so there's always a chance that he could have it all turn out to be a supervillain plot.

Space Phantoms! Lots and lots of Space Phantoms!!

5/12/2006 09:15:00 PM  
Anonymous C. Tynne said...

Remember a few years ago when Mark Millar revealed that "Ultimate" Xavier hadn't killed Magneto, just brainwashed him into being a human-loving, powerless puppet of Xavier's will?

(Killing someone who refuses to stop slaughtering innocents is actually preferrable to removing their ability to choose...ANYTHING, I would think.)

And Millar portrayed this as a complicated, morally grey area thing...instead of the extremely paint-it-black EVIL monster it made Ultimate Xavier actually seem like?

It's taken several subsequent writers to recover Ultimate Charles from that concept.

Not that Eros was even being used before this, but unless there IS a "super-villain plot" explanation, his use as a hero has been effectively stifled.

5/14/2006 07:43:00 PM  
Blogger Uncle_Nobs said...

You seem to be steering clear of the CBR thread on this, Brian. Are you just holding off until Slott finishes the story, or is there something else going on?

5/14/2006 11:17:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

The former.

If this isn't the end, then it is too soon to say Slott made Starfox a rapist.

There is still time for this to be revealed to be a crazy supervillain stunt.

I don't think that takes away from the feelings on the reading of this issue, as this issue has an ending to it, so I think you can judge this issue on its own.

But "Slott making Starfox a rapist" has not been resolved yet, so I think we should give him a chance to see if he does pull it off.

There better be a lot of Space Phantoms involved!

5/15/2006 01:39:00 AM  
Anonymous Matt said...

I'm with you. This issue seemed "off" to me, partly in the total ass-kicking She-Hulk gave Starfox when she "realized" he'd used her power to tag some of that jade booty. I remember a scene from an Avengers comic I read as a kid with She-Hulk waking up in an awfully good mood (singing, even) and a wet Starfox leaving her bathroom. "Did you leave me some hot water" is all the dialogue I can remember, but years later (after discovering girls myself) it dawned on me that...yes, a seven-foot-plus green woman and an alien had sex in my comic book.

I wish I could remember the issue number, but alas, that knowledge is gone in my own green fog. I also remember an annual from the '90s where the Wasp and She-Hulk "rated" the male Avengers on various stud-muffinesque attributes, and both agreed Starfox was a bit on the hound side. However, that same discussion revealed that She-Hulk's daliance was decidedly not a one-night stand. "Friends with benefits", perhaps.

5/15/2006 03:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When it comes to handing out lameness, I've always felt that Starfox stood in that line twice. While you're entitled to think Slott butchered Starfox's origin (such as it is), I think he just took it to a logical extreme.

I notice you completely passed over the suggested homoerotic implications of the Hydra agent's "man-crush" on Starfox. If anything, THAT is what I expected would make some readers get a little bent out of shape.

But what Slott did is take the sexual tension that SHOULD exist between scantily-clad superheroines and superheroes in skin-tight spandex. Starfox apparently exudes his "pleasure power" even when he's not trying to deliberately. Personally, I'm more interested in whether Starfox was having unprotected sex with all these women and whether someone was going to come down a cosmic STD.

As one of my least favorite Avengers, there's really nothing you can do to Starfox that would lower him in my eyes. Slott, apparently finds Starfox's powers to be a little creepy. So do I.

I had no problems with SHE-HULK #7. I thought it was cleverly written and well illustrated.

5/19/2006 07:25:00 PM  
Blogger Brian Cronin said...

"When it comes to handing out lameness, I've always felt that Starfox stood in that line twice. While you're entitled to think Slott butchered Starfox's origin (such as it is), I think he just took it to a logical extreme."

He took it to the extreme, I'll give you that.

Logical is where I differ.

Because Starfox has plainly said, "I don't use my powers to make people have sex with me," and now, APPARANTLY he does.

"I notice you completely passed over the suggested homoerotic implications of the Hydra agent's "man-crush" on Starfox. If anything, THAT is what I expected would make some readers get a little bent out of shape."

His power has been shown to work on men in the past, so no biggie there.
And I like the little "THAT is what I expected" bit. Nice strawman tactic there. "I expected some homophobes to have a problem." Fine effort.

"But what Slott did is take the sexual tension that SHOULD exist between scantily-clad superheroines and superheroes in skin-tight spandex."

That is what I mean with the whole cynical thing. "Because he COULD rape women, he WILL rape women."

"Starfox apparently exudes his "pleasure power" even when he's not trying to deliberately."

Which is counter to how the character has been used in every prior appearance. For someone who knows as much about Marvel history as Dan Slott, it is disappointing to see him ignore it.

And even if you DON'T know the history, to decide to make a superhero a rapist is just way too cynical and lame for my tastes.

That being said, if the story is not finished yet, Slott might still have a card up his sleeve. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if the story is not over yet.

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1/25/2018 03:23:00 AM  

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